So to PJ, they were different, but i think that they are pretty much the same. Not being a linguist I don't know. But is it possible that because the words are phonetically similar, 'Uruk' is a proper term for 'orc' which is in turn a common usage in the vernacular? Letters The name has the form orch pl. Easier I think 'Goblin' was ued in Hobbit because it was an easier term for the child audience the book was aimed at to relate to.
I have a feeling that in The Lord of the Rings that goblin is a slightly more disparaging term than orc. Otherwise they are indeed used interchangeably. In Sindarin urug has a similar use. But the form orch seems at once to have been applied to the Orcs, as soon as they appeared; and Orch , pl. Yrch , class-plural Orchoth remained the regular name for these creatures in Sindarin afterwards. The Orcs themselves adopted it, for the fact that it referred to terror and detestation delighted them.
The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech , devised it is said by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times. If referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga. Last edited: Mar 18, When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he didn't consider it part of his larger mythology even though he used names from it. He used the name goblins because they were already familiar with them.
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Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin or hobgoblin for the larger kinds. Orc is the hobbits' form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all to our orc , ork , applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind. I'm going to primarily confine myself to the Hobbit and contemporary texts for this, just so that there's no doubt. First of all, and as I mentioned in a comment, there is the name of the sword Orcrist, which Tolkien translates as "Goblin Cleaver".
What may not be immediately apparent is that "Goblin Cleaver" is actually a direct translation from Sindarin, which was at the time "Gnomish" of Orcrist. There are two elements in the name, with "Orc" clearly translating as "Goblin" and thus leaving -rist as "Cleaver". This translation of -rist is actually quite old, going back at least to the Etymologies of the s, which are published in HoME5 and are contemporaneous with the Hobbit:.
Orcrist therefore translates as "Goblin Cleaver" and "Goblin" is therefore a translation of "Orc". No less an authority than Master Elrond confirms this:. As an aside: Glamdring "Foe Hammer" uses an element from another name for Orcs, Glam, from "Glamhoth", "yelling horde", so the use of Elvish languages here is consistent rather than casual.
Now, Gondolin was a sealed city, and the only time that it's army ever came out was for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The Fall of Gondolin was unexpected though prophesised so it's too much of a stretch to imagine anyone forging swords in explicit anticipation of that.
So it's quite clear that the "Goblin-wars" which Elrond refers to here were the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, and by emendation to the Quenta Noldorinwa the later story of the foundation of Gondolin before the Battle had already emerged by this time see HoME4. However, every contemporary account of the Battle mentions "Orcs", not "Goblins" as the primary foe, so again it's definitive - the "Goblin-wars" of the Hobbit were a great Battle against Orcs. Finally, and again going back to the Quenta Noldorinwa of the s, we have the following in an early passage:.
The hordes of the Orcs he made of stone, but their hearts of hatred. Glamhoth, people of hate, the Gnomes have called them.
Goblins may they be called , but in ancient days they were strong and cruel and fell. Is it valid to use the Quenta Noldorinwa in support of this? I believe so, yes. I think you need to bear in mind that The Hobbit was not originally part of Tolkien's legendarium, but was, essentially, a take on classic fairy stories. As a tale for children the use of goblin would be consistent, as I'd imagine most children would have some idea of what the word meant as opposed to orc.
Similarly the elves seem closer to the fae fairies than the elves we see in Lord of the Rings and elsewhere. It wasn't until he started writing the Lord of the Rings that Tolkien decided that The Hobbit was set in the same universe as the Silmarillion, at which point it would make sense that goblins and orcs are the same thing.
As for goblins The Hobbit not liking daylight and orcs LotR not caring, that's not actually right. The orcs in LotR dislike the sun, but the uruk-hai don't care. Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic? Or you'll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained.
Run, curse you! Run while night lasts! Presumably if the orcs could climb the walls like spiders then they could easily get past it but it's only the balrog, who walks straight through, that can chase them. If you noticed The Hobbit had Goblins but not Orcs.
That tells me that Tolkien just decided to change the name from goblin to orc. So Tolkien had probably already decided that orc was another term for goblin in The Hobbit. At most one may have been a more general term than the other. In the Hobbit, most mentions are of goblins, while in the Lord of the Rings, most mentions are of orcs. In the Book of Lost Tales and other earlier writings both terms appear, and are often used synonymously.
There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs: and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men. Upon a stake in the middle was set a great goblin head; upon its shattered helm the white badge could still be seen.
So yes, goblins and orcs are variant sub-races of the larger orc-kind. But confusion still arises based on the inconsistent usage in the legendarium. Here are the differences between Orcs, Goblin and Uruk-hai.
It starts with the knowledge of their creation in the Silmarillion i. The Goblins, as far as I can tell are Cave Orcs, i. Orcs that over the ages of living in caves, developed an aversion to sunlight. Thus their skin turned black when they went out from Saruman into the daylight after their creation but because of their Orc and man genes they possess, the sun does not destroy them.
This is the understanding that I've come to after long studying the Histories and Lore of this beloved mythology. Thank you, I hope this information helps. I believe, as with many races and cultures here on the real earth, people tend to pigeon hole groups of people into the same slot just because of outward similarities when in fact they have nothing to do with each other.
Tolkien, I believe, with an eye on making his world believable , allowed the creatures of Middle Earth to suffer from the same racial bias and ignorance and consider all things Orcish, Goblinish or simply different depending on their cultural dialect as being one and the same. He never says goblins were once Elves, but does clearly state, through other characters, that Orcs were once Elves and that, to me along with clear cut characteristic differences ,is the definitive connection.
Several individuals are described both as "Orc" and as "goblin". These include Azog "Azog the Goblin"; "a great Orc with a huge iron-clad head, and yet agile and strong" , Grishnakh described as both an Orc and a goblin in "The Uruk-hai" and almost certainly Ugluk "a large black orc" and then what is almost certainly his head - and one of his Uruk-hai followers' heads if not - "a great goblin head".
All of those examples show that goblins and Orcs are synonymous, and that there is no distinction based on size: Azog, Grishnakh "short" but "very broad" and the Isengard Uruk-hai are all "goblins" and larger-than-normal Orcs.
On top of this, George MacDonald Fraser author of the Flashman books describes in his memoirs how he and his fellow sub-editors at the Glasgow Herald wrote to Tolkien to ask whether Orcs and goblins were identical. Tolkien confirmed that they were. All Uruk-hai are Uruks. All Uruks are Orcs. All Orcs are Goblins. That is how J. Tolkien intended the names to work. They just fell into many different tribes.
Orcs are goblins and goblins are Orcs and that is as Tolkien always viewed the matter. Are There Female Orcs in Middle-earth? Did J. Often referred to as "Bogarts" or "Bogeys" they are the folkloric source for the "Boogey Man" we all feared as children. Hope it helps Loque masochistic biscuit.
Joined Feb 11, Messages Hobbit Whatever I'm doing, I have to keep doing it Staff member. Joined Jul 16, Messages 16, Would now be a good time to tell people what 'bogies' are in the UK? Bogeyman may be an American thing Some have suggested the word 'bog' has affinities with an Indo European word meaning 'god' and that these beings may be diminished godlings, perhaps of a bronze age or earlier people Runebreaker The Fantasy Anarchist.
Joined Nov 15, Messages Basically when i think og goblin's i think of a slightly larger version of those grimling creature seen in the movie "Gremlings". Now here my question whats the diffrence between a goblin and a hobgoblin??? GreyWulph New Member. Joined Sep 11, Messages I could have sworn in the movie that Elrond said Saruman was crossing orcs with Gondor Men. He kind of slurred the words together so I also thought I heard goblin but on a subsequent viewing I think I heard Gondor Men.
That would make more sense. Joined Jan 12, Messages 4, Hobgoblins are generally stronger, meaner and more warlike than orcs or goblins. I think they're supposed to be smarter, too. Joined Jul 11, Messages
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